Adriana Galván on the Adolescent Brain, Stress and Systems that Support Young People

Lisa Lawson:

Welcome to CaseyCast, the podcast of the Annie E. Casey Foundation. I'm Lisa Lawson, the Foundation's president and CEO. On this show, we explore how to build a brighter future for children, youth and families.

Today's conversation is close to my heart because it brings together two things I think we could all benefit from learning more about: how we understand adolescence, and how we act on that understanding to better support young people stepping into adulthood.

I recently wrote a book called Thrive: How the Science of the Adolescent Brain Helps Us Imagine a Better Future for All Children. It's my first book, and I'm very proud of it. It captures lessons from Casey's work with young people and shows how we can redesign programs in areas — from education and employment to youth justice and mental health — to work with young people's developing brains to set them up for success and prevent future challenges. Much of that work is rooted in Casey's Thrive By 25® grantmaking, which strives to equip adolescents, especially those navigating the toughest barriers, with what they need to become thriving adults.

And I couldn't have written Thrive without the groundbreaking research of today's guest. Dr. Adriana Galvan is a professor of psychology and dean of undergraduate education at UCLA. She directs the Developmental Neuroscience Lab and co-leads the Center for the Developing Adolescent. She is one of the world's leading researchers on the adolescent brain, and her work has shaped how we think about learning, risk, resilience and the power of relationships during the teenage years.

Adriana, I am so glad you are here. Welcome to CaseyCast.

Adriana Galván:

Thank you, Lisa. It's so good to be here with you in conversation and I know hopefully we'll talk a little bit about your book. It has been really just such a good synthesis of the science and why we should support young people. Thank you for having me.

Lisa Lawson:

Well, I'm so glad you're here. Well, let's start with the beginning so that we can understand what sparked your interest in the adolescent brain.

Adriana Galván:

To be honest with you, I loved being an adolescent. I think that's really what piqued my curiosity. I loved high school, I loved the friends I made, I loved college. And when I started graduate school, I was surprised to learn there wasn't much known about the adolescent brain. We had done a lot of research on young babies and early childhood, but we didn't know how systems and environments and the brain interact to create our young people. And so, I was excited by that and that's what got me into this work.

Lisa Lawson:

Well, give us an insight into what you have learned about the science of adolescence. You said this is a time of both vulnerability and opportunity. Why is it such an important period neurologically?

Adriana Galván:

Because so much happens in the brain during adolescence, and that is not a coincidence. It's by design that our brains are designed for us to transition into adulthood. And not only do we need change physically, we all know that puberty changes how we look, but socially we make new connections. We're leaving the nest, so to speak. And so not just humans, but all species have a change in their brain that helps them navigate a changing social landscape, a changing environment. And so that is rich with opportunity, but the vulnerability part comes because we're going into unchartered territory and luckily the brain is there to support us. There's the changes of the prefrontal cortex that gives us greater executive functions. There are changes in how our social brain responds to new individuals we meet. So, it's just an exciting time and we're lucky to have a brain that keeps pace with that changing personality and social component.

Lisa Lawson:

That's fascinating. As I was writing the book and what I've learned from you is that adolescence lasts about 10 years.

Adriana Galván:

Exactly. Yeah.

Lisa Lawson:

And the fascinating fact I found was that we have the longest adolescence of any species.

Adriana Galván:

That's right.

Lisa Lawson:

So adolescence is literally what makes us human.

Adriana Galván:

Exactly. I see it that way. It's literally what makes us human. Jumpstarted around 10, 11, 12 when we hit puberty. But it lasts over a decade because it takes that long for humans to really achieve that developmental milestone of becoming adults. In some species, it's one year or two years, but we really take our time and that's a good thing we do that.

Lisa Lawson:

It is. Well, you talked a bit about the way the brain develops from the back to the front, and the prefrontal cortex is that part in at the end of this process. Say more about that, what executive functioning looks like. The aha I think many parents will have listening of the things they want their young people to be able to do, but they can't because their brains haven't matured. Talk about what's happening in those end stages of adolescent brain development.

Adriana Galván:

Yeah. So when we say that the brain develops through the early to mid-20s, we're not saying that the brain physically is going to keep expanding, because our skulls couldn't handle it, actually. But what we refer to is exactly what you referenced, that the prefrontal cortex and the way it responds to the world is what's changing. The connections in our brains are changing so that the prefrontal cortex, which helps us control our behaviors, helps us think about the future, that is better communicating with our emotion systems. And so that refinement of connectivity is so important because it allows us to pause, think about our actions, and that's what's not happening when kids are younger. And the prefrontal cortex development is the last brain region to develop. And again, that is by design, because when we're babies, we don't need that prefrontal cortex. Our parents are a prefrontal cortex. They tell us, "Stay away from danger. Do this." So it makes a lot of sense that the prefrontal cortex develops last and gives us that agency we need.

Lisa Lawson:

Oh, that's great. We often hear teens are impulsive or irrational. There is so much worry about risk around young people. How does neuroscience reframe those traits in a more constructive way?

Adriana Galván:

Well, I have a 14-year-old and 11-year-old I don't think of them as impulsive. I think of them as exploratory; I think about as adventure-seeking. And even that little reframe helps us appreciate that. Thank goodness we have this time in life when we're willing to leave the nest and to seek out new connections and people and ideas. And sometimes that looks impulsive to parents and caregivers because, "Why'd you do that?" "Well, because I wanted to. It seemed like a good idea."

And all of us throughout our lives, if we reflect on it, the risks are what have led us to where we are. That first job application, that new hobby we tried, all of those things have served us well generally, in general. And that irrational piece comes because for adolescents, they engage with a lot of behaviors that actually don't lead to a negative outcome, that we think may not be a good idea at the time. And so is it irrational? I don't know. It depends on the perspective. Maybe it's rational to actually seek out the similar behaviors that your peers are doing.

Lisa Lawson:

I think it's curiosity. When I talk about adolescents, I love their curiosity. They are, like you said, going out into the world and they don't know how anything works and they learn by doing. So they want to experience all these things as a way to learn. And I think that positive reframing of it as curiosity, not as thrill seeking or risk seeking. It's really about how do you surround young people, I think with good things to explore, rather than leave them without positive things to think about.

Adriana Galván:

Exactly. And also if we think about the most interesting adults we know, they're the curious people. They're the ones who are traveling. And when we travel, that's sparked by curiosity. And also you learn by doing. You show up somewhere, you don't really know how things work. But that's what keeps us young actually, is when we do new things like that.

Lisa Lawson:

Well, in your teaching and research, you explore how stress affects the adolescent brain. In my book, I talk a lot about, I describe adolescence as this bridge between childhood and adulthood. And how, imagine if you were crossing this really important bridge and you were in a storm or you didn't have the right gear or you didn't have a guide. In many ways, we've got so many young people crossing this bridge in adversity. Could you talk about the long-term effects and what we can do to mitigate harm and really say more about which kinds of adversity are challenging for young people long-term.

Adriana Galván:

Exactly. I love that analogy you make to a bridge because it is spot on the way development happens. And for each new developmental milestone, we are reaching a new bridge. And when our kids are young, we're right there. When they're learning to walk, the bridge is scaffolded. We're really creating bumpers on our furniture, and you're right there for them. But as they progress through that development, that bridge becomes less scaffolded. And I often wonder why do we pull back? It's because we think they should know better or they look older, so they should be able to do it on their own.

But as you note that particularly young people who have faced stressful environments or adverse environments earlier in life, their brain is focused on the adversity. Our brains are really good at responding to what's happening in the moment. And so, if we've had a stressful life, the stress is front and center in our brain. And neurobiologically, what happens is that we release cortisol, hormone called cortisol, when we are in a stressful environment. And cortisol is specifically targeting the amygdala, which is the emotion processing center of the brain and the hippocampus, which is the learning part of the brain. And so if you're under stress, your brain is really focused on that stress and those individuals need extra support as they navigate this bridge to adulthood because their brain has been trained to see the world through this threat environment because that makes sense. They've had a threatening environment. So how can we align the different systems in which adolescents engage to support that transition despite the stressful environment?

Lisa Lawson:

Yeah, I think that is so important. And I, like you, often wonder, "Why don't we continue to wrap our arms around young people as they grow up?" We've all put the plugs in the lights in the electrical sockets to make sure they don't put their fingers in there. But I think it's because it's invisible. Puberty is the only visible part. It ends fairly early in the adolescent years, but all that other work that's happening is invisible. And I think your work is just so powerful because it helps to make the invisible visible.

Before I go to my next question, I do want to ask why we don't tell more people about adolescence. I talk in the book about how my daughter, who's now 22, still an adolescent, had the opportunity to have a biology teacher who taught her about brain science so that she knew what was going on. We only really give young people sex education. We don't talk about brain education or even parents. We don't get taught that. Why do we have this gap in our knowledge about human development that stops so early?

Adriana Galván:

I completely agree, and it even goes up to training pediatricians, for example. Some of them get training in adolescent health, but some do not, even though it is so important. And I think it's because we all were adolescents at some point we kind of assume we know what we're doing and we have assumptions and those assumptions that actually can be counterproductive in supporting our young people because, "Oh, I figured it out myself. They don't need me." And that's just not true. They need us just as much as they needed us earlier in life. And in part it's because I think adolescents in their quest to become independent, start to give off vibes that they're not as responsive. They're not running to greet you with a big hug when you get home. That's not what they're doing. And so does feel like a rejection to parents. I often chat with parents about how as their adolescent is changing, we too, as parents are changing in our development. It's a new stage for us too. Both of those things sometimes clash in our ability to connect with our young person.

Lisa Lawson:

Yeah. I was talking earlier this week with someone and I said, "It's not disrespect or disinterest, it's just development.

Adriana Galván:

That's right.

Lisa Lawson:

Learning to separate. And so I think that-

Adriana Galván:

And we want that, right?

Lisa Lawson:

We want that.

Adriana Galván:

Not to need us. If you've done a good job: they're happy to say goodbye and come to you when they need you.

Lisa Lawson:

Right. And you're right, it requires a different kind of parenting, not the diligence that we have with young children, but the coaching that the older young people need.

Well, one interesting thing you talk about a lot is about the connection between adolescent development and sleep. And in fact, you teach a very popular course at UCLA on this. What should adults know about sleep or the lack of it and how that affects teen well-being?

Adriana Galván:

Sleep is everything. We can talk a whole two hours about sleep because it's so important.

As adults, we know if we don't get enough sleep, we're not paying much attention, our emotion-regulation is a little bit off. And so for individuals undergoing brain development in those key regions of emotion-regulation of attention, it's going to hit even harder if you're not getting good sleep and our young people are not getting good sleep. And some people say, "Well, it's social media." It's not just social media. It's the fact that they have more social pressures, they have more academic responsibilities. And also the brain during adolescence actually changes its relationship to light, actual light. And so the brain doesn't feel sleepy until later in the night. And so adolescents want to go to bed at 11 or 12 and then they still have to get up early. And so we're truncating how much sleep they're going to get.

But sleep is so important for all the reasons. And again, coming back to when our kids are young, when they're babies, we are highly monitoring their sleep. We're doing the music, we're optimizing the temperature in the room. But then when they get to be teenagers, no question about it. We never ask, "How's your bed? How's your pillow?" None of it that would make a difference in how well they're sleeping. So at my house, sleep is number one. They're sleeping. They know the importance of it, and I care more about that than homework, than anything else.

Lisa Lawson:

That's great. I read an article where you were even talking about pillows.

Adriana Galván:

Yeah, get a good pillow. I mean, yeah, just a little bit of the science. We did a study where we examined all the sleep factors that contribute to how good the sleep is, and we found that more than social media, more than how many people you're sharing a room with or something like that. If your pillow is comfortable, you're getting better sleep. And that is really easy, right? Easy. Ask your teenager tonight, "Are you comfortable when you go to bed?" And they're going to say, "No, you got me that cheap pillow," whatever it is. So get them a good pillow.

Lisa Lawson:

Great advice.

To the bigger picture at the Casey Foundation, we talk about adolescence as a bridge, as I said, but that bridge isn't always stable for young people who face barriers. How can systems better align with what we know about brain development?

Adriana Galván:

I think you just said it, systems need to align. Aligning government systems, social systems, educational systems, because we're not optimizing that process for young people. And they're navigating. So like we already talked about physical development, social development, and yet all these other systems they interact with makes a big difference.

I know you're very familiar at the Bronfenbrenner way of development, and Bronfenbrenner was this very famous psychologist, who shed light on the many systems in which we are reared, right? The family, the educational system, the government system. And when those systems are misaligned, we leave it up to the young person to navigate, and that's probably not serving them in the best way. And so as they cross this bridge into adulthood, that's what we can do best, is help them navigate those systems in a cohesive way.

Lisa Lawson:

And to deliver the programs and services in ways that align with their brain. We were just talking about sleep. One of the ways educational systems might consider this is what is the start time? If we know young people need more sleep, how do we think about that? I've talked about in the justice system, we think just punishing young people is what will get them back on track. But young people are actually motivated by rewards.

Adriana Galván:

Yes, that's right.

Lisa Lawson:

Incentivize them towards more pro-social positive behavior, you get dramatically better results.

Could you just give us some practical examples like that of ways that we can align with how young people at this age are learning or their peer connections or sleep, their natural life rhythms. What do we need to be thinking about?

Adriana Galván:

Yeah. Well, the great example you just gave is school start time. That is a big debate. And in 2014, the American Academy of Pediatrics had a call and said, "Why don't we delay school start time," and the Seattle school system did just that. And they have seen gains and, not just things you would imagine like SAT scores and GPA, but a reduction in the number of car accidents among young people, which is still the leading cause of death among people 14 to 24. So things that seem seemingly unrelated to the development and health of young people, very much are. And young people who are system impacted, those in the carceral system or in foster care, are even more impacted because at 18, their world completely changes. So how can we scaffold that process, I think is really important question.

Lisa Lawson:

Well, one system we obviously think a lot about is the justice system and your work has influenced court decisions around youth sentencing. What do you wish judges and others who interact with young people who've made mistakes understood about the adolescent brain?

Adriana Galván:

I think the biggest thing is that plasticity equals possibility. Sometimes we think about the inherent plasticity of the brain, that is the ability to take in new information and to change from that new information or context or environment, as a negative. That's why they're influenced by their peers. That's why they're less likely to make good choice. But I see it as a possibility. There's a reason that people's brains are plastic during this time, and if you lock them up, if you incarcerate them in a way that will deprive them of that positive input, that's not going to support the goal that we are trying to achieve for that person and for our society. And so I have the pleasure and privilege of providing a training for all new judges who are in juvenile justice court. And I say this to them that when you see a young person in your courtroom think about the possibility of redirecting their behavior, of the influence they've received that has led to them being in your courtroom. And I really hope that we move away from isolating these young people when what they need most is social connection.

Lisa Lawson:

Yeah, let's talk about connection. We often think young people are just listening to their peers, but we know they are still deeply influenced and guided by the adults in their lives. So in Thrive, I talk about the importance of permanent connections. What does the science say about the role of relationships.

Adriana Galván:

Yeah, I'm so happy you devoted time in your book for these permanent connections because the permanent part is so important and the connections part is so important, that our brains are primed to seek out connections. It's why as parents, we notice that they're paying attention to their peers and really excited to meet new people. It's because their brain is saying, "this is really good for you to establish connections with new people," and the permanent connections is important, that that home base that they can come back to. Often we imagine that young people only care about their peers. Their friends are more important. They're not paying attention to what their parents are saying or their caregivers or their educators. That's just not true. The science shows that they are paying just as much attention. They're not maybe as effusive about the advice that you were given, but it matters to them that you care to give them that input. And so, having that permanent connection, whether it's a parent or some other caring adult, is so important. And knowing that when mistakes happen, as they will happen, there's that baseline person who will be there to catch them and to support them when things go awry.

Lisa Lawson:

I think it's so funny, my daughter often says, "Why would I listen to another person who's 16? They haven't figured anything out. You look like you know what you're doing."

Adriana Galván:

That's right. You've been through this. And I think as adults sometimes we fail to tell them about our own mistakes that we made. We want them to not make them so we avoid them. But I tell them about my heartbreaks. I tell them about the time I should have done something different and I hope it's helpful. I hope they know that what they're experiencing is normative and we got through it okay.

Lisa Lawson:

I think it makes them listen to us more because then they see us as real people. That's also a part of this period is where they are seeing their parents as real people and people who have navigated the same things that they have. So I think you're right. Being honest and authentic is really important to young people, and it gives you more influence than you imagine.

Adriana Galván:

Especially about things that really matter to them. We sometimes belittle romantic relationships during adolescence, but that is maybe one of the most important things that they're experiencing, is those first crushes and first rejections and things like that.

Lisa Lawson:

What does that do to our young brains? People often say, first love feels more intense than relationships later in life, but what is that teaching our brains when we have those kinds of deep romantic connections early on?

Adriana Galván:

It's teaching them a different form of attachment because up until then you've had attachment to your parents and maybe your siblings, but this is a whole other level of attachment, as we know. And often that attachment comes with rejection pretty soon after. So, teaching us how we can step up for ourselves when we experience that rejection, and how we can lean on our support system. Because I don't know about you, but when I experienced my first breakup, I was telling everybody, "I'll never be the same again." I was like 15. But it feels so meaningful, and when we belittle or dismiss in an effort to make them feel better, we're actually not honoring that very real feeling that they're experiencing.

Lisa Lawson:

Thank you. That's insight I don't think many of us have about what young love is, how it's benefiting young people.

So in school we often see teens labeled as distracted or unmotivated or simply difficult, especially in traditional classroom settings. What do we get wrong about how teens learn best?

Adriana Galván:

Yeah, I think a lot, there's been so much research on learning in development and especially in adolescence, and as learning across life, the why matters. Why are we learning this? What is my relevance to it? But also learning through peer groups is really beneficial for adolescents. They really benefit from that.

But we also sometimes forget that the affect that adolescents present is not the affect they're feeling inside. So if someone is distracted or their brain is focused on something else, what do they focus on and why? And in particular, our young people who may be experiencing adversity in some way, or something in the home, or just stress in general. As we earlier talked about stress, our brains are really good at focusing on that stress. So if they're stressed about housing insecurity, food insecurity, discrimination, their brain is not going to be paying attention to learning about the hypotenuse of a triangle. There are bigger things to pay attention to. So, what we may see as distraction or boredom, is maybe a focus on something else.

Lisa Lawson:

Yeah, and you started off talking about the why. One of the investments we're making as a foundation is to support the partnership to advance youth apprenticeship. It's an opportunity for young people to make money while they're in high school, to have early career exploration, to meet mentors in the workplace, and to learn how to be responsible and make the why real for them, how does the hypotenuse relate to exactly the job at this manufacturing plant?

Adriana Galván:

That is terrific.

Lisa Lawson:

The more I think we do things like that to help connect the why for young people. I think that's the way I and others are trying to help people operationalize this science to realize this is how young people learn. Let's lean into that and give them newer opportunities.

Adriana Galván:

Exactly. And by that experiential learning, that's their brain is really interested in. So if they're sitting there receiving information through a lecture, that's going to be less impactful than learning by doing. And this generation has really proven themselves to be really good entrepreneurs, and so that's why we have the influencers and all the rest of it because, "There's a need, I'm going to fill it. I can think of a way to be innovative about this problem." So, great. That's wonderful for society. That's what makes us really human beings. So that's great to provide those opportunities.

Lisa Lawson:

I've talked to hundreds of young people in this job and probably 50% of the young people I talk to have some interest in being an entrepreneur. I think adults, imagine they just want to be famous or basketball players or something, but they are very interested. They see entrepreneurship as the pathway to the American Dream, and they see needs around them. And not just business entrepreneurs, but also social entrepreneurs. They're very passionate and want to help other people. Say something about that compassion. I find that really intriguing about young people. They care deeply about social issues and people around them.

Adriana Galván:

Absolutely. They care so deeply about it. And that's what keeps me inspired about this generation is that they're paying attention to what's going on. I'm a professor at UCLA and that last spring, we had a lot of protesting about current events in the world, and whichever side you align with. there's no doubt that young people are standing up for causes that they believe in. And often throughout history, adolescents are the activists and they're really expressing their compassion for other people. As you know, with a colleague at UCLA, Andrew Fuligni, we're doing a study on how the brain responds to pro-social behavior. And what we find is that when given the opportunity be pro-social to be altruistic, the brain during adolescence is more active than it is at other times in life. Many reasons why that beat may be maybe because the reward system is kind of an overdrive. They just find it more rewarding. Whatever the reason is, thank goodness that we have young people who are paying attention to climate change, to politics, to all the rest of it.

Lisa Lawson:

In fact, one of the five pillars that I talk about us needing to support for young people is leadership. They thrive, they grow. That's what we want them to learn to be in adulthood. And the more opportunities we give young people to lead in their schools, and their community, on their job, there's so many baked in skills in that.

Adriana Galván:

Yeah. And leadership takes many forms. It's not just the people who are at the podium. It's the quiet leader, it's the person who's showing leadership in their families, small business, whatever it is. There are different ways to be a leader, and I think young people would really benefit from that message.

Lisa Lawson:

Yeah. Well, you are a scientist and an educator and a mentor. Let's imagine you have three minutes to address a room of leaders,it might be teachers or police officers or a mayor. And your task is to give them one message about adolescence. What would you tell them?

Adriana Galván:

Well, one thing I would tell them is to read your book. I think your book really does a really good job at synthesizing everything that we're talking about today, so that's one thing. But the other is that becoming an adult doesn't happen overnight, whether you're a human or a puppy or whatever it is, whatever. It takes time, experience, and learning. And thank goodness, we have this protracted development of the brain because we need all of those inputs and hopefully their positive inputs. And so even if someone has had an adverse experience earlier in life, adolescence is a time to redirect that experience in the justice system. Providing the right inputs is ever more important than it is in adolescence, than it is in the other time in life. Also, adolescents are often having the most fun in the room. So let's lean into that. Let's learn from that joy that they experience. And as you mentioned earlier, it's because their reward system is really active, but we can learn a lot from it. New things are thrilling, and as adults, sometimes we're not getting those experiences, but young people really bring a lot of joy to our entire world.

Lisa Lawson:

They do. I agree with you. I write in the book I love teenagers. I love their creativity, their curiosity, their compassion. I think they are fascinating. And you have more years of raising an adolescent ahead of you than I do. I think I've only got two or three more years left. But what a wonderful journey it's been as a parent, what a blessing it's been as a leader to be able to help our organization and as a result, help nonprofits and policy makers and hopefully our country think about adolescents differently. And it all starts with this foundation of science that you are brilliantly uncovering and sharing for the world, and we are so grateful to you.

Adriana Galván:

Thank you. I'm grateful every day that I get to do this work, and I find it so important. And as I started and said in the beginning, just personally gratifying, it was fun to be a teenager, and I stay connected to that time in life by studying them.

Lisa Lawson:

Thank you so much for your knowledge, and I certainly know our listeners today will be thinking differently about adolescence because of you. And thanks to all of you for joining us on CaseyCast.

If our listeners want to dive deeper into the science and solutions we discussed today, I invite you to explore my new book, Thrive: How The Science of the Adolescent Brain Helps Us Imagine a Better Future for All Children. You can find it at aecf.org/thrivebook. And as always, you can learn more about the Casey Foundation's work and find show notes for this episode at aecf.org.

Until next time, I wish all of America's kids and all of you a bright future.

---